Proceedings of: Workshop on Improving Building Design for Persons with Low Vision

Panel 6: Interior Design (Gregory Knoop, Moderator)

Eunice Noell-Waggoner, IES, LC. Value, Contrast and Reflections

(Note: A transcript of this presentation was not available. These edited Proceedings are based on notes by JEW and TOS, and slides that accompanied the presentation)

Erin M. Schambureck, IIDA, CID, LEED™ AP. Vision and Wayfinding: obstacles to spatial orientation and navigation

Wayfinding is more than just graphics (slides 2 – 4)

Obstacles to Navigation

I love these pictures (slides 5 – 7), because I’ve worked in places like that and have unfortunately been forced to design places like that when there’s no budget and I’m reusing existing furniture and repurposing an existing space to put things into.

Cubical Layouts

But in a space like the one on the left (slide 5), where [compared to] the one on the right, you have an absence of color and shadow. It’s a sea of cubicles; a cubicle farm, as one of my friends call it. There’s no way to navigate those spaces.

You look for things -- like, in the very back of the [right] picture[ in slide 5], somebody has a potted plant on their overhead, and you look for that potted plant as a way of orienting yourself in that office space. So cubicles and things that are not fixed architecture can be just as big a problem to navigate as other options.

Furniture in Space with Clutter

This (slide 6) is a blowup of a plan from, like, a 1940s or ‘50s German office building. This was the idea of an open office plan where you could be flexible and you could be within reach of all the pieces that you needed, and someone else could be off over in their own world. But this creates spatial clutter. Freestanding furniture is going to be just as much an issue to navigate through as the architectural walls and the space.

Floor Naming and Numbering

This is a little abstract one, but if you look at those elevator buttons, whether you’re in a building in San Francisco and you come in on the east side of the building and it’s Floor Level One; you come in on the west side of the building and the road slopes, and you’re now in B- 2.

So how do you know what floor you’re really on? How do you orient yourself within that building? We have no system that says, “Here’s how to number a building.” There are certain conventional standards, but there’s nothing that says, “This is the best-practices way to do it.” And you could confuse people between M for Main, L for Lobby, 1 for first floor. Well, in some cases, you’re -- for example, one is actually the second level above ground. How do you name them? How do you number them?

The numbering system, too, when you’re looking at a plan, an architectural drawing -- I’ve been part of projects where they’ve laid a grid over the floor plan, and the upper left corner is one and the lower right corner is 100, and we do a left to right down the grid. And that’s how they number buildings.

Comment by [Participant]: In defense of architects, that should change when the signage comes through, to be logical.

Response by Erin Schambureck: I hope so. It’s meant to be for the mechanical systems and labeling those into the AC systems and [other construction coordination]

Comment by [Participant]: It should never be the numbering system afterwards.

Response by Erin Schambureck: But it gets done. So looking more intuitively at how we number a building, can we come up with a better process for that?

Protruding Objects

We do have some guidelines in the ADA about where you can protrude objects into a hallway, but we don’t necessarily say that the objects protruding need to be of contrasting colors. So you may miss the object or you may not even see it altogether.

Comment by [Participant]: Well, that standard was specifically written to address people using a cane.

Response by Erin Schambureck: A cane, right.

Comment by Participant]: Essentially, the 27 inches is a magic number where [the cane of] an average-height person will intersect with the object, giving that user sufficient stopping time to avoid the object.

Comment by Participant]: So there’s nothing for people with low vision.

Response by Erin Schambureck: Exactly.

Comment by Marsha Mazz: And, in fact, if it’s below 27 inches, it’s not a “protruding object.” So for those of us with low vision, you’re more likely to walk into it, exactly. So again, it’s a situation where we addressed a problem for one user group, but it doesn’t in any way imply that another user group is [accommodated].

Question by Erin Schambureck: So is there a way that we could address “protruding objects” and modify the language in some way that would make it more universally friendly?

Response by [Participant]: The state of California attempted to address that by requiring what are known as detectable warnings, the bumps on the curb ramps, underneath drinking fountains.

Question by [Participant]: Did it work?

Response by [Participant]: Well, using detectable warnings to mark protruding objects would dilute their effectiveness to signal that we’re about to enter traffic. People come up with good ideas, but sometimes, they’re not as well thought out as we’d like them to be.

Disorienting Spaces (slide 7)

These are two images from the [research] project that Dennis talked about yesterday, where they were analyzing interior spaces that visually say one thing but really mean another.

In the [photo] on the left, which is from the Bellagio [Hotel in Las Vegas, this is a reflective glass wall next to the two gentlemen. It looks like there’s four people standing there. There’s actually only two. And the flooring pattern is such that there’s a little offset, but it continues on in through the glass. I would walk into that wall.

You know, it’s hard to tell. If you imagine Las Vegas lighting, it’s a lot of really warm lights and it’s a very uniform – (background noise) – of color temperature of light. There’s not a lot of distinguishing [features]. It is all just sort of orangy, runs together, very disastrous design change.

[In the photo] on the right, it looks like steps. It’s not. It’s actually a flat surface, and then going into the lovely, also very easy-to-navigate checkerboard flooring pattern. So we’re creating in an idea something that was supposed to identify what is probably an elevator lobby, but it’s creating navigation difficulties.

Solutions to Enhance Wayfinding (slides 8 -15)

Use color and design to create architectural landmarks to aid in spatial orientation (slides 8 – 10)

We can use color and texture to facilitate wayfinding. We talked yesterday that thinking about it in terms of gray scale. For example, in the space on the left [in slide 8], there’s a color definition behind the main reception desk. Now, yes, there’s a lot of glare in this space. It was an east-facing wall looking over the Mississippi River. But there is some sense of [orientation] of where you go when you need to find information and also spatial orientation.

Then also, looking at vertical wayfinding, where you’ve got a set of stairs [right photo in slide 8], the same color continues up, denotes that spot on the plan where you are. Using those things on a larger scale can help people navigate vertically through a building and then also horizontally [in those areas].

Again [slide 9, left photo], color denotes areas of plan. We’ve got a glass wall in front of the YMCA building that continues the entire length of the building, and they’re denoting where that entrance is with a large red stripe. This is where you’re supposed to go to get in.

And then the same thing on the floor-plan signage [slide 9, right photo]. We’ve got different areas of the floor plan highlighted in colors on the map. To the right of that and cut off the [slide] is the list of departments and a dot with the corresponding color to the location on the map. And then throughout that building, the signage corresponded to the location on the map. So if you were in the orange section, all of the signage in that section had a little orange square on it to help you continue your spatial orientation.

And I changed [slide 10] so that this is actually another point that it’s going to make it easier to navigate a building if the main circulation paths on different floors are similar. This plan shows Level One on the left and Level Two on the right. And I purposely gray-scaled Level Two after our conversation yesterday about “can we make it [signage] universal for color deficiencies.”

For the most part, it works. You can’t tell the difference between the gray on the righthand floor plan and the green on the left. The purple and the red are pretty similar, but they’re far enough away that it’s not as confusing. I was more concerned that the blue and the purple might end up being the same gray-scale value.

Avoid the extremes of surface reflectivity and contrast (slides 11 and 13)

Audible Information Systems (slide 14)

We can add more audible information. This is a quick graphic of a talking signage system. There’s more research that could be done in adding talking signage. We were working, talking to the U of M folks about – they’re developing a 2-D bar-code system that would go with a hand-held. A low-vision person would wave the hand-held piece back and forth. It would pick up that bar code.

There’s a distance delay of about three feet right now, so you’re actually [be] three feet past the sign before it transmits to a Blue Tooth phone or earpiece that tells you what that sign was that you just passed and what it says. And you can tell it that you want more information.

There’s technology coming out that can be incorporated in specific instances to help you navigate –3-D maps, hand-held.

Location of overhead signage (slide 15)

We can have this wonderful overhead signage, but we also need to have the signage closer to the eye level. The bring it closer and easier-to-read concept. Overhead signage is great for navigating wayfinding; make sure [that it] also [is] at a large scale [and] at a lower level that people can get close to it and really figure out what that sign says; [and] repeat signage.

Implementation Challenges for Interiors (slides 16 and 17)

And then just some different thoughts for how we’re going to implement [these solutions].

Prescriptive requirements are great, [if they are] backed by research, but that also may limit the design creativity and options and force someone to design something somewhere that may not [have] the best [performance]. Every scenario is different, so how do we allow for any unique situations for design?

Items that we can work on in the ADA [include]:

• Detectable warnings. Can we bring that into the building somehow and require that strip at every stair in an egress stairwell?

• Protruding objects. How can we improve that so that [protrusions] are not such obstacles?

• Improving egress signage?

Comments by [three Participants]: There’s one other aspect of the detectable warnings that people don’t think about. In the past, [we] have been required to have truncated cones covering the entire surface. For someone in a wheelchair, that is literally hell. And you’ve got to get back up and get out of the street. Exactly. So that’s a really bad idea.

Pricilla Rogers, Ph.D. Making the “Invisible” World “Visible”

I took a lot of my slides out because we’ve already talked a lot about design concepts and interior design.

Jeanne Halloin, IES. Interior Design

Importance of Codes

I think it’s important to know that codes are not bad. I can’t tell you how helpful codes have been through the years. I think we should get away from the idea that they’re not good. There are so many mistakes we could have made over the years if we had not had codes. And I remember when I first moved to Michigan, I would go to this meeting. And I walked across the carpet in Michigan, which can be very cold and very [dry; I was] shocked out of my mind. And I’m thinking, “Somebody didn’t think at all about code,” you know, the static electricity in carpeting.

There are all kinds of codes that really are helpful. I taught building specifications for commercial interiors. I tried to tell them, “Codes are really your friend. It helps you so much [to specify the] right thing and to know what to ask suppliers and manufacturers [about] materials that you’re going to use.

Motivational Characteristics

You already know these things because you’ve already agreed pretty much on what motivational characteristics are:

• Low vision makes us more dependent on our environment (slide 3)

• Aging does the same as we compensate for increasing frailty and sensory loss (slide 3).

• Low Vision Characteristics (slide 4):

  • Need more light.

  • More sensitive to glare.

  • Slower to adapt to different light levels.

  • Function better with high contrast on surfaces and tasks.

• Good Lighting (slide 5).

  • Light levels adequate for the visual task.

  • Fixture design to promote glare reduction or elimination.

  • Fixtures placement to avoid direct & reflected glare, and shadows.

  • Light levels that are fairly uniform while still providing areas of interest.

[For example,] when we talk about defining edges of things: white is a better definer of an edge than a dark color.

One reason I feel that way is one of the first facilities that I was involved with was an assisted-living community, and there was an Alzheimer’s area.

What they would do is sometimes, in front of a doorway, there would be a cutout in the carpet and there would be a black circle there. It’s because Alzheimer’s patients wander continuously. A lot of them move all the time. And they were wandering into these spaces and taking things. So if they [staff] put a black circle in the carpet, and even though it wasn’t huge, they [patients] thought it was a hole, and they wouldn’t cross that area.

[Also the patients] had bracelets, but they could still go out [of] the doors and then we’d have to find them. So [staff] would put stripes on a flat area near the doors. [The patients] would think there were steps [at the area] and they couldn’t take their wheelchair out there or they were afraid to navigate them.

So black is not a color I’d use if I’m trying to help people get somewhere, because I know it’s a color that is used to prevent people from going places.

Material Characteristics (slide 6)

Value Contrast (slide 9)

Signage (slide 11)

Location, location, location, especially in relationship to the light sources. And then reverse contrast is better because you don’t have the glare from the background. They really should be solid at floor level, and, not shadowed, as you [lean in to read]. Auditory signs can be an option.

Orientation (slide 12)

This was already brought up. Floor-plan organization, if it’s consistent from floor to floor, it’s much easier for people to navigate. If circulation areas do not have curves and non-right angles, it’s much easier for people to navigate, and if waiting areas are kept separate from the circulation areas.

You know, any time you go through [circulation areas], not when you get to the end. But as you go down the line, the waiting areas are separate. We don’t always do that in public spaces, and we don’t always do that even in office buildings. But there are a lot of buildings where [separation is provided by] an area rug or a change of floor color: “that’s the furnished area that’s [the waiting area] right adjacent or to one side.

Comment by [Participant]: New office space also. There’s plans where they want people to eat outside of the work area, so they’ll put them in the corridor space. And it’s undefined, separate [area].

Response by Jeanne Halloin: It can be a real problem.

Visual Busyness (slide 13)

And I want to also say avoid visual busyness because we’ve been saying contrast is really [overused]; I think you have to use contrast sparingly. All of a sudden the place is so busy that you’re trying to take in too much information. And if it’s hard to see, it takes you a long time to take in all that information.

So I think what you have to do is use the contrast on the edges of things to tell you where the edge of the counter is, to tell you where the floor meets the wall, to tell you when something sits out [and protrudes into the[ space, to tell you when there’s a freestanding object. But you don’t want to then start balancing it by just putting it all over.

And you see that. Sometimes you see it in the ceiling pattern, but the ceiling isn’t all that high and you have all these beams running across. You look at it. The first thing you see is there’s a lot going on here, and so you feel like you have to really [concentrate]. And we can avoid that by making spaces simpler, avoid alternating light and dark areas.

Lighting Applications

Lighting Performance

So I think we can do that and still not have our lighting levels be dramatically different or not have them use spotlights to make things bleary and confusing. And also, as someone talked about earlier, you just have perimeter lighting sort of like this (slide 14), where you have all these [sconce lighting fixtures].

There were a number of slides we saw today where the tops of the walls were really dark (slide 15). It made the hall space look smaller and lower. And there’s a lot of recess perimeter lighting that just gives you a wash down that wall. It’s inexpensive lighting to run, but we [have alternatives that are] a lot less expensive than they are.

But you can just come in early in a job. You can design it into the architecture and not have to buy all those fixtures. So you can get a lot of good perimeter lighting without having to start adding things later (slides 16 and 17). And that’s a huge advantage to coming in early.

Another thing I wanted to point out is lighting has a lot to do with our sense of security. I have gone back to projects, even recently a project I did where I was above the IES standard for lighting for the public restrooms, but it was a facility where people didn’t know each other and there wasn’t a community where the same people were always there, and they didn’t feel comfortable in the restrooms because of the lighting level. It was easy to add some more lighting, so we did.

There was a study done where there was one person at a table, and someone would come in, like, over in another part of the room, and they would fill out a questionnaire. They thought the questionnaire was what the study was on. The study was actually on lighting. But then they were asked to turn their questionnaire in to the person at the table, and there were only that subject and the person at the table.

If the lighting level was low, they would kind of reach and put it on the table, and they would not come close to the person at the table. They wanted to keep their distance. If the lighting level was higher, they would come right up there and they would talk to the person at the table and feel more comfortable.

So I think if we keep lowering our lighting levels, we don’t feel as safe. We don’t feel as secure. We’re a little more frightened of using public spaces in places we don’t know people. There’s psychological affects as well as the safety affects.

Roberta Null, Ph.D., ASID. Training for Blind and Low Vision Persons: Color Contrast

Open Discussion (Panel 6)

Issue 18: What design guidance on accessibility through contrast and signage attributes can be provided in the short term for persons with low vision?

Comment by Greg Knoop (Moderator): Thank you Roberta. And from the clinical corner here – I hear a lot of positive “Hmms” – because this is the appropriate use of an aesthetic. Do you remember “The Joy Luck Club” and that stainless-steel-on-stainless-steel kitchen that the mother walks in and is, like, you know, shocked? I mean, that’s what we’re seeing as a common aesthetic. So here’s a more appropriate aesthetic for our population.

Lighting Contrast and Conceptual Design

Comment by Vijay Gupta: I wanted to [continue] discussing [the] earliest availability of standards or [guidelines] which are already on hand. So your panel has done a good job. There are a lot of issues on contrast.

I want to give you a real example. I work in a building that three of us here – Kate and Tom – : [The GSA Headquarters] Building. It’s a historical building, 1917. It’s a very bad building. I’m in the office of the chief architect. So [I had an old ] space. It was old design.

In February of 2002, we moved into the new office of the chief architect. It’s [on a corridor of a wing] and was 50-foot-wide [with the core running] east and west. And the whole [interior is] all white, clear white, everything white – the ceiling, the floor, the floor tiles, the wall, the columns, the furniture. Even the signs are so little – all white, all white.

Comment by Greg Knoop: We can show you that. It’s in that synopsis presentation [slide 8].

And the chairs – somebody brought in the chairs with the leather. The chairs were leather. And the only thing which was shining was the [frame, which was] chrome. The good news was they had plants at every column. So [I did not] bump into the columns.

The conference room [had glare as furnishings were all] white – chairs white. And especially if the sun is shining, you got a lot of sun.

Okay, to conclude. My eyesight was a little bit better than now. So I could navigate with the green plants and with some other [visual cues]. I [relied on] them that way for several years. But I had to go into this [new space]. But they got rid of the plants.

Comment by [Participant]: [The design of this space] was influenced by Richard Meier. I think Ed Feiner had gone to Meier’s office and, you know, he liked that and so they hired some designers to do this all-white scene where everything’s white.

Comment by [Participant]: But it was good because it got Vijay so angry that he convened us.

Comment by [Participant]: We certainly [don’t] want that to be the representative of what makes American architecture great. That really is a horrible statement.

Signage

Comment and Question by Tom Williams: Along with the discussion about wayfinding and signage, it brings out the issue of contrast and tactile signs and so on. One of the things that we don’t do much here in the States is use pictograms. Wouldn’t it seem logical to use that on a more regular basis? And I understand that there are people out there that, these things just don’t register.

And I happen to be married to one of them who can’t translate a pictogram, but I think some of it is a learned skill and that, in addition to the fact that it’s easier to make the contrast, it’s also a more universal signage that doesn’t rely on knowing the English language. Is that something that we could build into these guidelines?

Response by Erin Schambureck: The only pictogram requirements that I recall being in ADA – and Marsha, maybe you could verify that – is really just that handicap image – the person in the wheelchair. The international symbol of accessibility.

Response by Marsha Mazz: Actually, there’s four, in terms of the ADA and ABA standards – one for assisted lifting, one for volume control – off the top of my head, I’m forgetting the fourth one. But anyway, we don’t require pictograms except for the international symbol of accessibility. The others we require only if you provide those features.

Question by Tom Williams: Well, the question really is, would that be an easier way to provide guidance?

Response by Marsha Mazz: Probably not for people with vision impairments because oftentimes, if you’re looking for the restroom, you know what the word “restroom” looks like as a whole. It’s a Gestalt – or “ladies” or “women’s” – you know all those. And so you have a sense of that form and how much real estate it takes up.

But pictograms – they get expanded and shrunk and they get, you know, decorated and all kinds of other things, which may – if you only use a pictogram – may be a problem. But I think you’re onto something in terms of, you know, trying to get at people using multiple methods. Some people are going to find a pictogram easier to spot and easier to understand, and particularly people with cognitive disabilities who may not read at all.

Comment by [Participant]: Perhaps incorporating those pictograms into the wayfinding to get you to those place, not just the sign identifying to the stair or the restroom.

Response by Marsha Mazz: My argument would be for redundancy with the use of the pictogram, not to have the pictogram totally supplant the word. In fact, when you use a pictogram to identify a restroom, for example, you are required – it’s in the ADA and ABA standards – to provide the equivalent verbal descriptor in raised letters or Braille.

Comment by [Participant]: And I think, also, those pictograms should be informed by human factors or something because I found out I’m not the only person in the elevator who cannot identify which of those triangles is – and I never want to push it because I’m sure I’m going to be pushing “close door” on somebody who’s trying to come in.

Response by Marsha Mazz: That’s a very good point. Most of the pictograms we use are not ISO standards and so they haven’t been tested through any kind of [a consensus process]. Just because we invent a pictogram doesn’t make it a good one.

Question by [Participant]: Is there a requirement for size in our standard – the size of the sign?

Response by Marsha Mazz: We’ve declined to try to describe the minimum size of a pictogram itself because, where do measure on a glyph? So what we did was, we prescribed that the field in which that pictogram sits has to be a minimum of six inches tall. So we’ve trusted the graphic designers to not put a postage stamp in a six-inch field. But legally, they could.

Question by [Participant]: But what is that six inches based on?

Response by Marsha Mazz: The six inches is just a typical plaque size that you will find for most signage. And we know that six inches is going to be installed anywhere between 48 and 60 inches on the latch side of the door because that’s required. So it’s going to be at eye level and it’s going to be at least six inches tall.

Comment by Fred Krimgold: One thing that I’ve noticed that is kind of interesting is, just taking airports and gate numbers around the world, they vary tremendously.

Response by Marsha Mazz: It’s a huge problem, and we haven’t regulated them as clearly –

Other Contrast Attributes

Comment and Question by Jim Woods: [This] picks up on what Fred was saying, but I heard something that is just blowing my mind. It’s confusing me and I want to get some understanding. Several of you used “contrast” in ways that I’m not used to considering contrast – contrast of texture, contrast of some of the other attributes. But do you see contrast in a different way than “light and dim”?

And that’s a big issue, I think, as far as us trying to get into a common vocabulary. I’d just like to hear you express, for example, when you talk about texture contrast, how do you [measure and] perceive that differently than you do color contrast?

Responses by [three Participants]: Change. It’s a change in light. It’s an obvious change.

Response by [fourth Participant]: For example, in our doorways in our center, we use wood-carpet-wood, and it’s a whiter color. And we have carpet and it’s all butted-up so there’s no step down or anything. But it’s a change in texture so a person who’s visually impaired or blind, they would know – they’ve got the texture – but they’ve got both [cues].

Response by [fifth Participant]: There’s a change in resiliency between carpet and wood, and that change in resiliency is a good cue because it’s also, often, an auditory cue if you’re using a cane or it’s an underfoot cue if you’re not using a cane.

Question by Jim Woods: Okay, but if we were to go color-neutral, [what are some of the other aspect of contrast?

Response by [Participant]: You’re going to feel the difference between the smooth surface and a soft surface or a textured surface. You feel that because it’s a difference in the friction, basically.

Response by [Participant]: When we did our [consensus review], we had huge discussions going on for hours because the lighting designer would use [“contrast”] one way and the interior designer would use it another way. And I mean, I had a lot of terms, and we could pull out some of those terms.

Question by [Participant]: So, how would you measure contrast in a non-visual way?

Response by [Participant]: We say obvious change.

Comment by Vijay Gupta: [This] is that experience from that obvious place I had. So I complained to the director of the office that very problem and a few days later, in that lobby, I saw some black leather chairs I say, they listened to me. Later, I came back – the chairs were gone. So I asked – I went back to the director and I said, what happened? Oh, Jesus, somebody made a mistake and delivered the wrong chairs.

Question by [Participant]: [What about surface changes?] – the old bumps, you know, in the road that they have. That seems to be the thing that you do, too, for low-vision people or blind people, because they stand up. But they’re really hard for older people with low vision because they’re hard to walk on. Your walkers get stuck in them and things like that.

Response by Marsha Mazz: Actually, we’ve researched that, and I know people say that, but the research doesn’t support that claim. So I will tell you that there is a constituency of people who have fought that requirement forever and they are the successors to the constituency of people who fought installing curb ramps on the basis that their belief that curb ramps would be dangerous to blind people.

And now they’re saying that you can’t put warnings on curb ramps or you’re dangerous to walking people. If you walk, you don’t have to use the curb ramp. In fact, most older people, including older people who use walkers, prefer not to use a sloped surface, not because of a detectable warning, but because it’s easier to step down off a six-inch curb than it is to lift your feet and walk down a slope. And this is why we had such competition over the issue.

Comment by [Participant]: [Maintaining] balance --

Response by Marsha Mazz: Right – exactly right because your walker is not on a slope. We have a constituency of people who like stairs and don’t like ramps for disabilityrelated reasons. But [others have] been using these detectable warnings on interior locations and to aid in wayfinding. We’ve participated in international forums on this subject. In some foreign countries, they do use a variety of detectable warnings – or [as] they call them in Japan: “taki blocks” – to aid in wayfinding.

And some of them are herringbone patterns and all kinds of other patterns, most of which people who have vision impairments can’t really distinguish one pattern from the other. They just know that they’re on a pattern. And so we find that the research, again, doesn’t support their use for wayfinding, most importantly because detectable warnings have a single purpose.

Like a stop sign, the detectable warning signifies to an individual who is blind or has low vision, stop here; don’t proceed further because you’re about to enter a vehicular area. So if we start proliferating these things all over the environment and putting them at drinking fountains and putting them here and putting them there, they lose their utility as a warning. They will no longer serve as a warning. We selected that pattern and that particular design because it was not readily available in the environment. Corduroy actually tested better for detectability but didn’t serve as a warning.

Issue 19: What Principles of Universal Design can be applied in the short term for persons with low vision?

Comment and Question by [Participant]: I have a question for Roberta. You really did a neat job on those kitchens – and in looking at the colors, I mean, it looks like it’s the 1980s. But now, are you just – is there a set of guidelines written down somewhere that, you know, when someone comes in and they say, yeah, I have trouble in the kitchen, they say, well, you know, if you really want to stay in your house, you might have to spend a few bucks.

But here’s a set of guidelines that you can take to your builder, remodel your kitchen so that it’s safer, accessible, blah, blah, blah, you know? You could figure out, well, that will cost me $10,000. Well, if you have to go to assisted living, it could cost you a hell of a lot more than that.

Response by Roberta Null: The National Kitchen & Bath Association does have guidelines and they’re good. And they change them and you know, they keep updating them and things like that. But it just should be universally done because no one should have to stand on their head to find what’s in the bottom of the base cabinets.

You know, that’s for everybody. And I don’t know if you’ve seen that refrigerator ad – it’s just wonderful – the little guy that can’t reach? And so they add this drawer, you know, to his Samsung, or whatever refrigerator it is. And he says, wouldn’t it be nice if everyone designed for everybody?

Comment by [Participant]: I would have said it on our website, on senior’s site, we have some tips for kitchens and bathrooms and all that – what people can do to just, you know –

Comment by [Participant]: There are universal designs for kitchens where the cabinetwork is actually – it can be raised and lowered, depending on –

Response by [Participant]: Oh, absolutely. That’s for the guy that was in a car accident and made a million dollars and, you know, had his kitchen completely redone. And in fact, they have a couple of these kitchens that are CGI. Yeah, and somebody that was at grad school there said that the one thing they always had problems with was the range that went up and down.

Response by [second Participant]: Yeah, that’s right.

Response by Marsha Mazz: There are drinking fountains that go up and down and nobody likes them and they’re no longer manufactured.

Response by Roberta Null: I really think a lot of this is education, you know, that you have to – with universal design, you have to show good examples and then you have to tell why they are good examples.

When I was in San Diego, we went to the Mariposa low-vision center. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but they’d just redone it. And everything was mauve. I mean, the chairs were the same color as the carpet; the walls were the same color. I mean, it was just like going into a monochromatic cave. I thought, this is the low-vision center? It was really alerting to me.